Is bike racing getting safer with introduction of electronics.

[pip]

Wot with the tragic events of this week. Is moto gp & professional bike racing getting safer with the growing focus on electronics, traction control, anti wheely, launch control etc.  Been thinking a lot this week with the death of marco simoncelli do all these gadgets actually make the sport safer or do they just increase the speeds in more dangerous places ie corners.  Would  marcos crash 10 years ago just resulted in a big slide off the track into the gravel trap or a big highside due to the lack of electronics interference. Was the slide on sunday prolonged due to the traction control cutting in causing the rider to hold the bike up on his knee then it gripping & verving into the path of the following 2 riders. 
I fully understand the need for development so road bikes can be safer but riding on the road is a totally different thing.  The electronics on a race bike are designed to make the bikes faster round the track ( the whole idea about racing) but on road bikes its meant to assist in tricky road conditions & be a rider aid & surely not meant so you can go over the national speed limit of 70mph  . 
I remember after sennas death in formula1 when the teams were going through a period of heavy development with traction control & active suspension etc They put a stop to certain things straight away as they said it was getting stupid regarding speeds.  So why dont they think about doing this in moto gp.  It might seem a backward step in terms of technolgical advancement & safety but it might be what the sport needs regarding safety as it kinda becomes self regulating.  By this I mean the manufactures can build a bike with easy 280hp when traction control keeps it all in line but if you take T/C away whats the point in building an engine with massive power when you cant put it to the ground.  So the manufactures will have to put more thought into building engines with better power delivery etc. Also it put the onus back onto mechancal engineering & not some electronis wizz kid.  The riders will have to have more throttle control too instead of just wacking the throttle open & letting the computers do their thing.


RIP MARCO #58

[Legzr1]

Honest answer is I think it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever.

Bike racing is a risky sport and accidents will happen whether you've got an on-board 128 bit PC controlling everything or a 40mm Bing carb and a spark plug.

Whether you admit it or not,that is half the fascination with it - the risk.

It's a lot of the reason I watch all types of bike racing but find myself falling asleep when the vehicles racing happen to have four wheels.

Katoh,Jones and Simo were years apart and that's something to be thankful of imho. (the name of the poor sod in Brit 600 stock escapes me at this time  )

You could argue that 'electronics' (together with better track conditions and safety/run-off) have vastly improved things.

Rhetorical question but don't you think it would be carnage out there with 240+bhp bikes trying to get into,round and out of corners as quickly as possible without 'safety net' electronics?

If you think not,just take a look back at the injuries to riders in the 80's,90's and 00's with considerably less power.

One of the best riders I've EVER seen now in a wheelchair...



It's a sad time at the moment with Marco's death fresh in the mind but now is not the time for kneejerk responses.


I reckon anyway 

BSB next season should be an eye-opener - just wait for the backlash when 3 of the top 10 are out with injuries due to highsides in practise and qualifying...


(good thread btw  )

[rotax81]

personally i think it makes no difference, all the gadgets or not.
marco was unfortunately in the wrong place at the wrong time... some have horrific crashes yet before they stop rolling they are scrambling for the bike.
unfortunate, just like craig jones was and his 600 had no gadgets 

[pip]

Ben gautrey was the lads name I think at cadwell.  Things with 4 wheels bore me stupid too.  There probs would be some big crashes I agree, but corner speeds now have gotten crazy. Do you think it would be carnage, the racers do have some sense in that they all wont be trying to open the throttle to the stop on the first corner if they knew they didnt have the cushion of T/C.  They managed in the first few years of the 900 era & they didnt have T/C then
  Is that Rainey your on about.  Just read his book proper racer to the point of obsession.  His injury was caused by the gravel trap being graded into big ripples causing him to tumble real bad wernt it though.   

[pip]

I think craig jones bike would of had T/C it was a world supersport bike & have you seen how speced they are. The have all the kit T/C, lauch control, wheely control, even auto blip.  The bss bikes are even like that now.
I suppose It is unfortunate wrong place at the wrong time.  Will have to see wot bsb hold next year.

[Kermittheflyingbog]

Personally I think all motorsport is safer these days and Marco's accident was exactly that, an accident, almost unavoidable and freak in nature 
I agree with the leggyone and that if the electronics were all removed than the carnage would start, maybe not fatalities ut peeps would be falling off bikes and hitting the ground like leaves in autumn. 
However I would like to see a degree of the electronic aids removed, it certainly improved F1 for a time with the truely gifted drivers shining and the push and pointers being shown up 

BTW I don't think that BSS or world super sport 600 have TC 

[pip]

They do. they have the full shabang.  Superstock dont but bss & wss do. 

[rupert fridge]

BSS do not have traction control, launch control or anti wheelie

http://www.msvracing.co.uk/media/12589/g%205.2.5%20ss.pdf page 141 refers

WSS appears to allow traction control

http://www.fim-live.com/fileadmin/alfresco/Codes_et_reglements/SBK_en.pdf page 84

[Legzr1]

The only electronics I know of that actually help bikes get into corners fast are anti-hop/air bleed systems.

TC (or lack of TC) will not change the fact that a racer will enter a corner as fast as is possible up to (and exceding) front tyre grip.
Once grip is lost two things can happen - it's lost forever,the front tucks and off you go on a tangent to the apex (relatively safely) or it re-grips and it's anyone's guess where the bike will go.

[Kermittheflyingbog]

BSS do not have traction control, launch control or anti wheelie
http://www.msvracing.co.uk/media/12589/g%205.2.5%20ss.pdf page 141 refers

Page 140 point 5.2.5.9.1 

WSS appears to allow traction control
http://www.fim-live.com/fileadmin/alfresco/Codes_et_reglements/SBK_en.pdf page 84

I stand corrected 

[rupert fridge]

Page 140 point 5.2.5.9.1 

apologies. I was bollocksed.

[Kermittheflyingbog]

apologies. I was bollocksed.

A reasonable excuse 

[Gaz]

I haven't watched the crash and don't intend to, but I don't see how any sort of electronics is going to help when a fallen rider is hit by a bike (or two). Rotax mentioned Craig Jones, similar sitch: rider fell, got hit by another bike; unless the electronics you're referring to are forcefields there's not a blind bit of difference they're going to make.

Facts:
 - riders fall off with electronic aids*
 - riders fall off without electronic aids*
 - there is a chance a fallen rider will hit an object
 - there is a chance another vehicle will hit the rider

Teams and riders will always adjust to compete with what's available to them (technology, rules limitations etc.) in order to win. I remember a couple of riders explaining why they were unhappy with the 800s compared to 990s: corner speeds were/are higher on the 800s so it felt more on the edge and dangerous, even though capacity was reduced to supposedly reduce speed (which it did in a straight line) and make things safer (which it didn't as mentioned before). Did any of those riders slow down because they felt unsafe? Did they bollocks, they want to win.

It doesn't matter what rules or technology are in place, racers will always be on the limit whether in MotoGP or MopedGP. Rider safety is a by-product of competitiveness anyway: a rider who falls off and breaks his bike doesn't win. If a team wants to win they want the rider to stay on the bike.

Sure, vehicle safety is more obvious in car racing with roll cages and survival cells or whatever. I think circuit safety is a bigger factor in bike racing - is there enough run off in place, no obstacles to hit etc. We see riders walk away from some horrific-looking accidents, and while highsides are likely to cause nasty injuries they're not likely to cause death. The danger is when another object comes into play.

Whether you admit it or not,that is half the fascination with it - the risk.

It's a lot of the reason I watch all types of bike racing but find myself falling asleep when the vehicles racing happen to have four wheels.

I dunno, there's been some bad events recently: Dan Wheldon killed last week,  Felipe Massa brush with death the other year, an impressive (noni-injurious) crash by one of the Audi's in this year's 24 Heures du Mans:



The photographer running away is slightly comical


*I'm not referring to the electronics aiding the falling off, whatever it sounds like.

[Legzr1]

I haven't watched the crash and don't intend to

Once,live, was enough for me - we're so used to riders travelling on their arses at velocity then getting up and limping away.

The image of a prone rider in the track and not moving was harrowing and reminded me of the Craig Jones incident - don't want to see that again.

I think the point some are trying to make (and you won't know this if you haven't seen the incident) is that Marco's bike lost traction THEN regained traction - this is what put him in the way of other moving vehicles.

Perhaps this is where the argument for banning TC is coming from.

Personally,I think the accident had nothing/very very little to do with TC - it was the front tyre that regained traction and changed the path of the bike away from relative safety and into a dangerous position.

Agree with all your other points - is the argument I was trying to make 

Disagree with 4-wheeled racing though - still boring*













*With upmost respect to those who've died doing what they love 

[Gaz]

I think the point some are trying to make (and you won't know this if you haven't seen the incident) is that Marco's bike lost traction THEN regained traction - this is what put him in the way of other moving vehicles.

Perhaps this is where the argument for banning TC is coming from.

Personally,I think the accident had nothing/very very little to do with TC - it was the front tyre that regained traction and changed the path of the bike away from relative safety and into a dangerous position.

I agree. Again going on the barest of info, it sounds similar to what happens in a highside (although at the other end) - traction is lost then (savagely) regained. It sounds like an accident of circumstance that he was thrown into the path of other bikes. The thing about circumstances, it could occur that a similar event would throw a rider out of a path of danger.

Disagree with 4-wheeled racing though - still boring*

Each to their own of course, but I have to admit loving Ginetta Juniors - 14-17 year olds don't think about tactics, it's just WIN!WIN!WIN!